The topic of ethical fashion is in the media this week because the annual Ethical Fashion Guide has been released. But can fashion ever be ethical?

My guest on this week’s Sense-making in a Changing World podcast is Shannon Lohr – a leader in the ethical fashion world.

Shannon’s career is defined by her efforts to change the fashion industry, promoting a sustainable approach focused on local production, quality materials and timeless designs. She believes how we dress ourselves is connected to the health of the planet.

“There is no such thing as perfectly sustainable fashion. Anytime you’re making something new, it’s going to have an impact,” Shannon says. “It doesn’t matter if you make your clothing with organic cotton if landfill is still overflowing with clothing. The real problem is the culture and marketing system that the fast fashion industry uses which tells consumers: buy a dress, wear it that night, throw it to the back of your closet and never wear it again or put it in the trash. That’s what creates an inherently unsustainable fashion industry.”

Shannon is the founder and director of Factory45 – an online business school that helps sustainable fashion entrepreneurs consider fashion design and manufacturing in a closed loop way. That means considering the life cycle of a garment beyond its immediate use and what the customer will do with it when they’re done wearing it.

She’s also a strong advocate for increasing supply chain transparency through sourcing, localisation and storytelling. She’s been named a thought leader for the future of fashion and was nominated as a “Woman of Note” by the Wall Street Journal.

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Full transcript below.

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Morag Gamble:

Hello and welcome. I’m Morag Gamble and you’re tuning into the Sense-making in a Changing World show hosted by the Permaculture Education Institute. My guest today has been described as a thought leader in the fashion world because of her ethical and sustainable approach, her efforts to localize production, source good fibers, mentor entrepreneurs who make timeless clothing and explore the use of innovative fabrics that change how we clothe ourselves. How we dress ourselves is connected so much to the health of the planet. Shannon Lohr is the founder and director of Factory45 which helps new clothing entrepreneurs do things differently. Fashion in fact is one of the biggest contributors to climate change pollution waste, and human rights abuses. We’ve got to do this differently. Before we begin I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unseeded lands from which I’m speaking with you, the Gubbi Gubbi and pay my deep respect to their elders past, present and emerging. And I’d like to recognize their care for this land the waters and biodiversity for millennia. Make sure to check out the show notes below for links to Shannon’s work. And also for more information about our work here at the Permaculture Education Institute. Oh, and make sure to to subscribe and get your notification of our podcast series. And leave us a lovely review. It really does make a difference in terms of how the algorithms find out and share our little podcast.

Morag Gamble:

Well, welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World show, Shannon, it’s an absolute delight to have you on for the listeners who are here with us today, Shannon is a thought leader in the fashion world. And it’s a delight to be speaking with her because both Shannon and I are focusing on exploring how it is that we can be in this world in a more sustainable regenerative way, and how we can support others to enter into this space and to step up into this kind of world in from a from a livelihood perspective, as well as the way that we live our lives. So welcome to the show Shannon. It’s an absolute delight to have you here.

Shannon Lohr:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Morag Gamble:

We could just start from the very start. Can you tell us a little bit about what is Factory45. And, the work that you do in sustainable fashion..like an introduction. What does that mean?

Shannon Lohr:

Yeah, Factory45 is an online business school that takes sustainable fashion brands from idea to launch. So in 2014, I started the program because I had just launched a sustainable fashion brand, I had no idea what it meant to be sustainable in the fashion industry, it was kind of like that was an oxymoron to even use those two words together. And so my goal through launching factory 45 was to make it easier for fashion entrepreneurs to start and make products that are sustainably and ethically made from the beginning.

Morag Gamble:

So why did you start focusing on sustainable fashion, what brought you to that place?

Shannon Lohr:

So when I was starting out, I was a fast fashion, bargain bin, junkie. I was known for in college, I would go to a Forever 21. I would buy a dress, I would wear it that night on a Friday night, throw it into the back of my closet, never wear it again. And that’s what the fast fashion industry is designed to make you do. It’s a ten dollar dress. You know, if you were at once it’s great, got your money’s worth. The problem is it creates this idea of disposable fashion. And when I went to start researching and looking into the idea of starting my own brand, I quickly realized how detrimental and damaging the fashion industry is on the environment on the people who make our clothing. And how I was just, you know, another part of the problem from the consumer standpoint. So I started the business to be a part of the solution. And we can get into what that sort of looked like and what what the brand was that I built. But now I you know, we look at the sort of the sustainable fashion industry, we look at the h&mS of the world. And you know, they’re backtracking now, right? They’re going to be sustainable by the year 2023, 2028. Whatever it is, well, how can we start to create fashion brands, just from infancy from idea stage in a way that is sustainable from the beginning so that you don’t have to backtrack in your supply chain and fix things after you’ve already been established. How can we do that from the beginning?

Morag Gamble:

And also I guess, too, there’s a lot of, I guess, misunderstanding to about what sustainable fashion means. And a bit of a mistrust too. When you hear big brands saying oh, we’re going sustainable, we’re going to recycle. When we hear also facts and figures about how little other fibers get recycled. So what does sustainable fashion mean to you? Is it possible to have sustainable fashion?

Shannon Lohr:

Yeah, well, I say that when it comes to making clothing. There is no such thing as perfectly sustainable. Anytime you’re making something new, it’s going to have an impact. And on you know, kind of back to the fast fashion model. It doesn’t matter if you make all of your clothing in organic cotton, right. A landfill overflowing with clothing is still overflowing with clothing, no matter what it’s made from and so when you have this culture and sort of this marketing system that the fast fashion industry has, again, buy a dress, wear it that night, throw it to the back of your closet, put it in the trash, then we have a inherently unsustainable fashion industry. And so when I work with my entrepreneurs and factory45, we sort of look at, okay, yes, fabric is part of that using natural fibers, not using polyester, you know, the manufacturing is part of that. But it’s also about the end life and the life cycle of the garment and making something that’s going to last for years to come, we really emphasize seasonless, trendless designs, and knowing where that garment is going to end up when your customer is done with it.

Morag Gamble:

I love the fact that it’s that seasonless and trendless. So actually working on that beauty, the timeless design and thinking about that whole system’s approach. I think it’s absolutely fantastic. And particularly, you know, as I was doing a bit of research, when I was thinking about our interview today, some of the things that I came across was that fashion is one of the biggest contributors to climate change. And I know, of course, that is also has massive impact in terms of pollution and waste and landfill. And also, interestingly to or not so interestingly, that two thirds of fabrics are made from oil in terms of them being synthetic fabrics. And if we start to think about the impact to have other types of like the growing of the cotton and the processing and all of the embodied energy in that. What are some of the interesting fabrics that you’re starting to come across, maybe ones that are just in an emergent phase, but where are you seeing those interesting trends emerging that are something that could actually be more truly sustainable?

Shannon Lohr:

Yeah, it’s a good question. So there are some like cool mushroom fabrics, seaweed fabrics, coffee fabrics and coffee grounds, recycled coffee grounds. They are some from sour milk. But those are, I think, still in innovation. They’re still in r&d. They’re not exactly used commercially yet, but one fabric that people often don’t think of, and I see it is becoming more popular is upcycled fabric. So fabric that was being used for a Tshirt, a you know, pair of pants, a men’s button up shirt, and then being cut and sewn into a completely different garment. One of our graduates, she she has a brand called LOTI, and she makes all of her garments, dresses, women’s blouses, from men’s button up shirts, and other garments that used to be one thing and now are something else. So the upcycled fabric and upcycled fashion movement is really growing with Gen Z as well. So I have a lot of hope for keeping more textiles adult landfills in that way.

Morag Gamble:

And you also mentioned a lot in the description of your work about ethical. So what does that mean to you? And how does that relate to say worker’s rights in the fashion industry?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, it’s another issue that is not black and white, unfortunately, or at least from a, you know, government or certification standpoint. But you know, knowing that I always say to my entrepreneurs, you have to go and visit your factory, you have to be on the ground. That’s why I believe so much in localisation, so that you can just, you know, pop over to your factory or it’s a short drive, or at least a short flight away rather than outsourcing overseas, depending on where you are. But being able to be there in person, talk to the sewers, see what the working conditions are, you know, like basic things, their ventilation, are there exits? Do workers the sewers seem happy? And then I always say like, don’t be afraid if when you’re in the hiring process of a factory or manufacturer to ask, How much do your sewers get paid? If there is a factory that is paying their workers above minimum wage, they’re going to want to tell you that they’re gonna be excited to tell you that. And so I don’t think there’s any shame in asking those kind of, you know, harder questions that may be like, don’t seem polite, but are very important to knowing the standard of the conditions.

Morag Gamble:

Really interested in this idea of localising the production of clothes because as far as we know, in the fast fashion industry, everything is outsourced. Everything comes from a really long way away. We have no connection or relationship really to anyone in that flow. You know, it’s just so distant. So how does one begin to find localized producers in in the fashion world?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, it’s really hard, it’s a lot easier now. And that’s a lot easier if you’re if you’re in factory45. But we have a whole manufacturing database of manufacturers, suppliers, product development. But I can tell you, when I was starting my brand back in 2010, we, I mean, there was no stone left unturned. We talked to organic cotton farmers in Texas, professors in Missouri eco-friendly supermodels in Brooklyn, you know, anyone we could talk to, and it was still very hard to open doors. So we ended up working with a factory, finally finding a factory in North Carolina, which if you’re not from the United States, on the east coast of the of the United States, and it was the old textile belt of America, that’s where all of our clothing used to be made before it all started to get outsourced. And what happens is, you’ve kind of find like one bread crumb, and then you realize how small the industry is in your local space, and they introduce you to someone else, who then introduces you to a fabric supplier, who then introduces you to a cutter or a grater. And it sort of is like this network, whether that’s in Los Angeles, or North Carolina, Texas, wherever it is. But that’s what happened. And I was able to kind of network my way into now having global contact. So if you live in, let’s say, Germany, we have factories that we can recommend in Germany, same as in Australia, wherever you are. So it is very, very much still word of mouth.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah, that’s amazing. And, you know, I think it’s a little bit like in the in the local food industry, too, when you’re trying to uncover things because everything has become so globalized that understanding and rediscovering the local food is absolutely fantastic. I guess my next question was about who’s buying these clothes? Who’s buying these really beautifully made, ethically sourced, natural fibers clothing? Where are you finding places to sell these online or their stores? Or how does it work?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, most of most of the brands that we helped to launch sell direct to consumer online. So whether that’s through a Shopify site, or through their own website, there are definitely more marketplaces now both online and in person, brick and mortar boutiques, its really across the board. But I would say that selling online now it’s like, it’s no longer optional. It’s a necessity. And that’s what the majority of the brands I work with are doing.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah, that’s really interesting. Because you know, you still, if you drop into any of I don’t tend to go there very much. But if you go to the standard shopping malls, you still see the standard clothing, and you sort of think, well, how? There’s that world, and then there’s this world of sustainable fashion? Where are they meeting? Where’s that awareness? Like, unless, you know to go and look for those particular brands? How is this awareness about sustainable fashion? Entering into this mainstream world of fashion? Where are you seeing the edges?

Shannon Lohr: 

I’m not sure they’ll ever integrate fully. But you see like, Target, which is like a mainstream shopping center, like they’re starting to have some sustainable brands and again, it goes back to like, what’s sustainable of what are they actually sustainable. But I do think the conversation is entering more of like the mainstream consumer, and at least now as opposed to 2010 when I was doing this, you know, launching my own brand, we’re at least using those words together. And the average person has at least heard about what sustainable fashion is. But I will say, where the most education is happening is on social media. It’s on Instagram, it’s on Tik Tok, where you have brands, small, independent brands, who are doing this in a thoughtful, conscious way, whether that is through ethical manufacturing or sustainable fabrics, and they’re talking about it and they’re taking on that education of the consumer. So to sort of ignite these conversations, and meet people where they’re at, you know, why does this dress that is sustainably and ethically made, cost three times what you’re going to see in a mainstream shopping center. So all of that I think, has really started to push to the tide and in a positive way. 

Morag Gamble:

Fantastic. So I wonder when people are coming to you to be mentored? How do you support people to stand up you because what you talk about is you’ve just got an idea. You don’t want people to come when they’ve already started like it’s from an idea. So how do you help people get from that idea on a piece of paper to actually launching their own? Their own brand and their own livelihood through a sustainable fashion ethical fashion?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah. So we have sort of, we have like our online program component, which walks you through the, it’s basically a roadmap or the entire process, we start with sourcing, because that is the thing that takes the longest is finding the fabric and materials. But when you’re talking about starting with idea stage, you know, there’s this conception, I think that’s a little bit old school, have you need this 40-page business plan, you have to write it and know all the answers upfront know exactly what how you’re going to do it, what you’re going to do and, and really the best way is to get your feet wet, and just start doing something. I have everyone do a one page business plan. So we’re at least starting with some sort of, you know, foundation, knowing that your business plan can and should change, and that nothing is set in stone. And really that comes from talking to who your you think your ideal customer is having conversations with them hearing what their problems are as it relates to your product and what the solution is that you want to provide for them. So yeah, we go from idea stage all the way to the end of the program is helping them to raise money through pre selling.

Morag Gamble:

So you also talk a lot about crowdfunding. So you use crowdfunding as a way to help people get started. Can you just talk a little bit about that part of your process?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, so pre selling through crowdfunding. So when we talk about crowdfunding, the overarching strategy that I teach is to pre-sell your product before you create any inventory. So you can do that through crowdfunding, like a site like Kickstarter, or you can do it through your own ecommerce site, a site like Shopify. But the idea no matter what kind of platform you choose, it doesn’t really matter. It’s really the general strategy that you are not creating inventory. And your customer is essentially financing your production for you, because they’re preordering what you want to create, and you have the money upfront. This not only reduces your own risk, but it also helps you test the market before you create inventory that could potentially like sit in your basement or in a warehouse and never get sold.

Morag Gamble:

Which is also creating fashion waste.

Shannon Lohr: 

Exactly. Exactly. So it’s a win for everyone. It’s a sustainability when it’s a win for your own, you know, risks, savings, money, all those things and thankfully, we are, you know, I’ve been teaching this strategy since 2014. And I used it for my own brand back in 2011. And we’re now seeing even like, you know, the main luxury brands use preordering. So it’s cool to see how much it’s grown and become just kind of like this thing that consumers are like, I’m willing to wait for this.

Morag Gamble:

So I wonder if you could just share a couple of really inspirational stories from some of the people that have come through your studio, because I think it’s amazing, it’s an amazing thing, seeing these innovative producers designers emerge. So what are some of those interesting stories that you’ve that inspire you?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, it’s a good question. It’s hard to narrow them down. Um, who do I want to highlight? I would say, I mean, one brand that comes to mind, she started Sotela back in I think 2015. So she was one of my first entrepreneurs, her brand is still running and its size inclusivity. So it’s making sure that there is a range of sizes in the sustainable fashion space for everybody type, and she is very pro body positivity and just human inclusivity in all its forms. She also just had twins and she has like four year olds, she’s just very inspiring kind of entrepreneur who’s doing it all. Another one of our success stories is Vetta also I think a 2015 graduate, and probably in terms of just like exposure and revenue our most successful brand that’s launched and she designed a capsule collection of five garments that can make up 30 days worth of outfits. And they release new collections kind of on a quarterly basis. So those are two that come to mind. But we have a whole page of alumni stories on our website of different brands that have launched through the program. And then we have an ethical fashion marketplace called market45, where you can see some of the brands that are selling.

Morag Gamble:

Oh, wonderful. I just wanted to ask you, too, about the business model about giving back somehow. Any of your entrepreneurs setting up business models where, you know, they giving back for regenerative work or for human rights work? How does that fit into what you share with people or what people are sort of unfolding in their own businesses?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, we have a brand, Tom Kelly, she’s actually an alumni mentor in the program, Megan, they have a partnership where they, it’s tree replanting, so for you know, a percentage of every sale. We have another alumni mentor, actually who she runs a brand called Santos swim, and they collaborate with ocean cleanup. All of her bathing suits are made from recycled fishing nets that are found in oceans and turned into into bathing suit fabric. Then factory45 we donate every month together rising, which is a big organisation here that funds a bunch of different projects. So I think, you know, I always say, don’t, you know, just give away proceeds or cut off revenue, for the sake of it, right? Like it means to make sense for your bottom line. And if you’re not there yet, with your margins, don’t sacrifice the health of your business for the sake of giving away to charity or organizations. With that said, I think that when you start a business that is inherently sustainable when you are, you know, working with a factory that pays its workers a fair living wage, who enjoy going to work every day like that is just as important as the philanthropy piece. So I think as you grow, if you can incorporate philanthropy into your business model, that’s awesome. But also just make sure that you have an inherently good business from the foundation from the start.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Because you know, you’re giving back by doing the right thing for all the workers and for the planet. And for the whole, you know, the whole sourcing the whole  – I haven’t got all the fashion language.. Is that a word? Oh, gosh the supply chain. That’s 

the whole supply chain?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah.

Morag Gamble:

So I just wanted to whether there’s a, there’s something that you would like to put out as kind of a call to action to consumers? Yeah, they think about fashion or being more aware of what’s happening in this space.

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah, I think that it can be kind of a redundant message, but maybe not everyone has heard it before. So I’m gonna go ahead and say it again, buy less but better. And I was actually just writing a podcast episode today for my own podcast. And the title was something along the lines, like, will recession, you know, kill sustainable fashion. And what the research has found in what I’m reading is that we are in a time where people actually, you know, consumer behavior has shifted since, let’s say, 2008, you know, financial crisis and the recession then. And people do want to buy less and buy better. And so I think if you can kind of think about what does that mean to you? What does that look like? Can you take that extra pause as you’re scrolling through Instagram, and you’re being served an Instagram ad that is perfectly catered to what you were talking about, or looking for, but think again, like, oh, but do I need that? Will I wear it for years to come? Is it classic? Is it well made? Is it trendless? Is it seasonless so that I can have it in my closet as a staple, and it won’t get, you know, discarded after a few years? I think that is what we can do from the consumer standpoint and actually have the power to make some change in the fashion industry once we start thinking in that way.

Morag Gamble:

Yeah, wonderful. I think it’s really worth restating that if people have did that before the way that you express it then was just really clear. So thank you for that. I’m going to include in the show notes below, links to your your work. Is there anything in particular that you wanted to let people know about? What can find on your site? You said that there was the various sorts of examples, what can they find on your on your site? And also tell us about your podcasts too?

Shannon Lohr: 

Yeah. So if you’re interested in learning more about starting your own sustainable fashion brand, I have so many free resources. On YouTube, we have a YouTube channel factory45, we have a podcast called Start Your Sustainable Fashion Brand, you could find it anywhere you get your podcasts. And then we have my blog is called the factory floor. And it’s, again, free resources, we have tons of freebies and all things that you could just start to dabble. And even if you’re not sure about pursuing your idea, there’s so many ways to sort of test and see before you take the full plunge. So that’s what I would encourage if there’s an idea in your head, and you can’t stop thinking about it. And on the other hand, if you are ready, and you are getting ready to start your sustainable fashion brand, and you want to do it through factory45, you can book a call with our Director of Enrollment. And you can do that at factory45.co/apply.

Morag Gamble:

Fantastic. And tell me just briefly about your podcast, what happens on your podcast. And what’s it called?

Shannon Lohr: 

So my podcast is a little bit different. It’s called Start Your Sustainable Fashion Brand. It’s not guest interview format. It’s more it’s under 20 minute episodes with quick tips of whether that is supply chain, marketing, encouragement, audience building, I sort of give very tangible easy things that you can do today to just take action on starting your own brand.

Morag Gamble:

Oh, fantastic. So there’s a whole lot of things whatever you want to dive into. And I will be linking those all below. So read the show notes and you can find all of the things that Shannon has to offer. Thank you so much for joining me today, Shannon.

Shannon Lohr: 

It’s been an absolute pleasure chatting, thank you so much for having me.

Morag Gamble:

Thanks everyone for tuning into this episode of Sense-making in a Changing World. I’m delighted to be able to share my conversation with Shannon Lohr with you. Remember to check out the show notes for links to Shannon’s work and also to our work here at the Permaculture Education Institute and to leave a five star review because it does help the algorithm to notice and share our show and don’t forget to to subscribe so you get notification of these weekly podcast episodes wishing you all the best. Take care.