It is my pleasure to welcome Natalie Isaacs, founder and CEO of 1 Million Women to the Sense-making in a Changing World show.
For 10 years, Nat has been inspiring and engaging a movement of women and girls around the world to act on climate. No more than every this is so important. 1 Million Women lead programs on all kinds of things from food waste, plastics, fashion, consumerism, carbon footprint, and show how to lead a low-carbon life everyday. She advocates taking on the climate emergency through the way we live – because it is empowering, it is something we can all do and launch us in to being active
Just this week, 1 Million Women is launching a new campaign asking us all to divest from the fossil fuel industry. The way we live and what we do with out money matters!
Natalie is also the author of Every Woman’s Guide to Saving the Planet – a book that is packed full of practical how-to’s and shares the story of how she transformed her life from being a climate bystander to an international campaigner. Being re-released in a global version this month.
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Read the Full Transcript
Morag Gamble: Welcome to the sense-making in a changing world podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it’s been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation.
Morag Gamble: In this podcast, I’ll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we’ll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can’t wait to share these conversations with you.
Morag Gamble: Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I’ve seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what’s happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I’ve created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women’s self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you’d like to find more about permaculture, I’ve created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life. We’d love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring, friendly and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I’d also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today.. The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
Morag Gamble: It’s my pleasure today to welcome Natalie Isaacs to the show founder of 1 Million Women. For 10 years Nat has been inspiring a movement of women and girls around the world to act on climate. Now more than ever, this is so important, Nat runs programs and all kinds of things from food waste to plastic, to carbon footprints and, and how to, how to live a low carbon life every day, taking on climate advocacy through the way that we live. Natalie’s also the author of the book Every Woman’s Guide to Saving the Planet which is packed full of how tos and, and really talking about her story too, from becoming, uh, moving from being a bystander to an international campaigner. Just today, as I was speaking to Natalie, she launched a new campaign on divesting. So really looking at what we’re doing with our money and how our money is or isn’t actually contributing to the climate emergency. So it’s with great pleasure that I share with you this wonderful conversation with Nat and thank her for the time she spent with me today.
Morag Gamble: So thanks so much Nat for joining me on sense-making the changing world. It’s an absolute delight to have you on the show. I was just talking to one of the young girls, who’s part of the permanent youth that I work with the other day. What’s your favorite book that you’re reading at the moment? And she said it was yours and she was so excited that I was having you on the show. So I’m so glad to have you here. Um, it’s, you’ve been running or inspiring this movement, 1 Million Women for about 10 years now. And I, and I know you’re so close. It’s amazing. Just a couple of hundred. How many, how, what are you at…
Natalie Isaacs: Yes! So close…Well, at about 970,000?
Morag Gamble: Oh my gosh. So what happens when you get 1 million? Does it become 2 million women? or…
Natalie Isaacs: I don’t know, because we are nearly at a million women now, but I, when I started the moment, I honestly thought that we would be at **[inaudible]** women in six months because I didn’t, I really, I thought that because for a number of reasons, um, but really because I, I didn’t fully understand how hard it is to change profoundly change how you live. And I thought that, you know, because I had just changed my entire life, I thought, Oh my goodness, how hard can this be? Everybody will want to jump on board. And so it took me by surprise that we wanted a million women in six months.
Morag Gamble: What inspired you to change because you were making cosmetics before, was that, is that right?
Natalie Isaacs: Yeah.
Morag Gamble: So from cosmetics to climate change activist and movement leader?
Natalie Isaacs: Yeah, I know. Huh. Um, so I was a cosmetics manufacturer for 24 years. That is, I’ve only done two roles in my life. One is start my own cosmetics company and the other is start the movement. As a cosmetics manufacturer, I, um, you know, my life is so different to what it is now. It was really all about over-packaging. I had microbeads in my products. I, I really was disconnected to the whole issue of climate change. Um, and I, I actually also thought that, who am I anyway? I’m just this one person. So you can’t, how can one person make a difference? And so, um, so it’s a very different world, but the short story is in somewhere around 2006, I think the world got the point on climate change. Um, the, the, the inconvenient truth came out in Australia. There were ferocious Bush fires happening at the time. Um, and I was doing, you know, without going into too deep, because it will make the story way too long. I was doing things that year that I was getting engaged on the, the, the issue of climate change. And, um, and so all these things were happening, but, but I think the thing that actually changed my life forever, and, and, and I, I say this a lot, but it wasn’t. I gave myself this challenge to get out household electricity consumption down by 20% and really easy stuff, low hanging fruit, anyone can do it. And when I saw the bill and I saw that I actually had saved, I actually did it, and I did it. I was still having a good time and I did it, and it didn’t cost me anything. And there, I just saved money and pollution at the same time, actually, that was what it was that it was that action where I did something and saw this result that changed my life forever. And I realized I was powerful. And what if millions of us did just that? And the kind of led me on my journey, cause I then got the household food waste down and then I got out and then I stopped over consuming. And then as you do, you know, I started a women’s movement, but, um..
Morag Gamble: That’s kind of the point where most people stop though, isn’t it, you know, actually going into the movement side of things is massive. But before, before we get into that, I was, I was wanting to just pick up on what you were saying that it is not just an all at once kind of thing is that it’s, there’s sort of like, there’s a, there’s a revealing of a change that can happen and you go, Oh, and then you sort of take up another layer and then another layer and you can keep moving through it. It’s not like an all at once have to change your whole life all at one time. Although there is this sense of urgency. And I guess by having a movement of people who are supportive, who’ve got information who you can tap into, who can kind of motivate you along the route of making the change. That’s kind of a really important part. I think of what it is that you’re doing with 1 million women. It’s creating that community of change rather than feeling that you are by yourself.
Natalie Isaacs: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that picking up on those points. It is a journey, you know, and, and, and I think that, um, it depends on where you’re at on the genuine, like if you were just, just starting this and you don’t know, you really don’t know what to do to make a difference. Um, it really, it really is this just do one thing. Don’t worry about anything else, just do one thing and see that difference because I promise you that one thing will pull you onto the next and then the next, and then the next, and then you’ll be wanting to know what the next is. And, and that’s this beautiful journey of empowerment. And, um, and I witnessed that all the time at one million women where you were, and that, that was absolutely my story. And maybe my story a bit quicker than others, because I rapidly went from one thing to another. But I think that, um, I think that profound change, um, it sometimes can’t just happen all at once and it is different everybody’s story is different. And the most important thing is that you’re on the journey just as long as you’re on it and you’re moving forward all the time. And I think that’s the, that’s the that’s that goes to the philosophy of one million women.
Morag Gamble: Yeah. I think, you know, being that’s exactly what I’m being on a journey and being, feeling part of something and connected to it. And, but there was something about what’s happening this year, which is, has made everything quite a bit different. I mean, what the last, the latest figures that I saw was that we’ve actually reduced a footprint by something like 14 or 14 and a half percent. Yeah. Well, it could be way more than that and that the ecological overshoot, the Earth overshoot day, which is coming up soon on August the 22nd, it’s the first time ever that it’s gone backwards since when I was born in 1969, that was the last time we moved on a sort of in a one planet way of life ever since then, we’ve been working towards with now what a full planet, where I live here in Australia and, uh, overshoot day, um, globally last year was, uh, July 29th. This year, it’s pegged to be August 24th. So we’ve gone backwards. So all of these things that COVID has forced us to do, like stop buying, to be more localized, to grow more food. There’s a lot of the things that actually were part of the message about consuming list, growing more, you know, being more aware of our carbon footprint, all of a sudden COVID has just kind of made us do that and shown that the impact on the planet is extraordinary. You know, look at the, um, uh, Venice canals and all those sorts of stories we’re hearing. How does that then change our messaging around what we’re doing with things like 1 million women and what I do in permaculture, because all these things we’re saying and kind of they’re here, then now we realize it. What change have you seen in how you communicate?
Natalie Isaacs: I think that, um, yeah, it’s, it’s a big question. It’s a really big, because we are very mindful of the way that we communicate at this point in time for a number of reasons. Um, and, um, and number one that, um, you know, like I can list them all, but number one, because of COVID, um, uh, and, and, you know, understandably climate change is sitting in the background, not a lots out there at the moment. And, um, and people are very focused on surviving and locked down laws and this crazy year of COVID. And so, but, but climate change sits there ever present, and we do need to get that back on the agenda, but I think that, um, it’s something that, o one thing is, is literally doing everything possible to keep it there, to keep it current and relevant. And the second thing is that, um, that in COVID I feel, and this is the way that we feel at one million women. There’s almost a sense of opportunity, which I know seems like the wrong word, but almost like there’s more like climate change is the good story that could come out of this. That COVID is such a, you know, such a tragic, sad thing where all living and then action on climate change. We could emerge from this, with this opportunity to live differently. And because, and I know that emissions are down by, you know, as, as somewhere between 14 and 20% and because of COVID, but we need those emissions down by that level because of the way that we’ve changed, how we lived.. We need, to learn from what we’re seeing with COVID and find this new path forward. And I see that that is a really new opportunity. And one million women is very focused on these, on that, on this new way forward on this gritty determination that we all need and that the window is getting smaller. And, um, and so that we need to, um, that whole nice journey and go at your own pace, which is what I just said before, which is really how we started One Million Women is now you need to run and you need to run fast and you need to be doing, changing our lives with this a lot faster.
Natalie Isaacs: One other thing that, so we’re doing a lot with that. But, um, and the other thing is that we’re really mindful of is the way that we are all feeling, you know, in our community one million women, as with, with, with everybody, um, anxiety and stress and depression and all those, you know, all those things that we, that are always there. But when you’re talking about climate change, it’s, you know, we have to be careful that you don’t take someone right through the despair, but COVID is now added another layer on that. And it’s important that, that we are mindful of how we tell a story so that we tell a story when we bring people in at a level of empowerment. And if we’d have to tell a story that is taking someone down to the depths of, you know, whatever the story is, um, like the other day we’re talking about plastics and how plastics are affecting our health.And so it’s, it’s, it’s a climate issue, it’s a health issue. And, um, and we really had to redo the storyboarding of telling this story. It was like 10 slides that we were showing. And we really re did the big starting point because we came, we came out of that, you know, plastics are bad for your health. So we, sorry, I’m probably talking to too much, but it’s, it’s an important piece when you’re storytellers, when you’re trying to change people’s behavior through emotionally connecting. So if we bring people in here, okay, this is bad. And then we’re going to try to, you know, take you along the bad story and then lift you up at the end. Um, it’s a, it’s a lot on, on someone’s shoulders already.
Morag Gamble: I think your storytelling part of it is such a critical way of engagement. And like your 10 years of being involved in this and reaching so many people saying, you know, like these are the lessons that you’ve learned about how we need to communicate, how we need to share the story, how we need to engage more people, because the urgency is only becoming ever more present. And so, so where do you stop? Where’s the, where do you start this story? Where do you..
Natalie Isaacs: You start on empowerment. And so we are doing a lot more of that now, so that we start the messaging that you are powerful. You are powerful. Powerful in everything you do. Okay. Come with me now on this journey, I’m going to take you down. I’m going to take you down. You might hit the bottom. I’m going to tell you the story, but I am going to bring you back out. I’m going to bring you back up and I’m going to end off with your solution. And so that you starting pointing your end point is up here and empowerment. And we’re very mindful of making sure that our stories do that. And, you know, whereas maybe we were, and that doesn’t mean we’re sugarcoating anything. It’s just telling that story. Um, instead of saying, did you know it’s bad for your health and men drop you down? Do you know that when you say no, the plastic, it’s a powerful thing. And here’s why it’s just the way that we tell stories. And we bring people along this journey. We’re very mindful of the way all our mental state at the moment.
Morag Gamble: I think it’s really important to, to, to have that depth of knowledge and understanding so that, that you do stick with it and that you do, you have the information to then be able to share with someone else as to why it’s not just, Oh, we should make change where our plastic. Oh yeah, sure. Why, you know, someone, when you pass that information on that story can ripple and ripple and ripple, then it goes further. And I also think that when you get touched deeply like that with, with the knowledge and with the heart of it, that you can’t unsee it once you kind of get drawn into that world, it’s, it’s, it’s in you.
Natalie Isaacs: And it’s this thing of, um, you know, and we, we do a lot of research. We’ve been doing this for 10 years. So we do a lot of research into, into behavior change. And how the, how does, how do you make it profoundly stick so it’s just part of you and how do you make someone go from inaction to acting in their lives, to using their voice and their influence and their vote, and they’re doing it all. How do you take someone along that journey? And, and I think that, you know, a lot of it is that, um, when you, um, and this was very much the case when I started one million women, it was like, um, he, this is us. This is how we live with this. This is who I am. Oh. And over here, I, um, I do all these things to look after the planet. I do this, this, this, and this. And I noticed that I’m very much at the beginning of one million women, where I was introducing the concept of people. And, um, and some people would say, Oh, how do I fit all this in? I already have a busy life. How are you asking me now to fit all these new things in? And it’s like, so profound behavior change. And when, you know, you’re, there is when you’re not thinking that looking after the planet is an adjunct to who I am. It is just part of how I am. And it’s not about trying to fit things in it’s literally I lived this way.
Morag Gamble: Yeah. This is, this is my way. What are some of the key things that you invite people to join you in doing? Have you got kind of like your top five or something like that, that you invite people to do?
Natalie Isaacs: Well? So one million women is this multilayered kind of movement. We, um, we have a website, we have an app. We have, um, you know, social media, we do campaigns. We do physical events, um, up until now, it’s a lot of zoom events we’re a movement and the whole focus is about empowering you to change how you live. And so we, um, there’s like, I think as we speak, we’re about to launch a campaign around divestment and which is a big theme for us for the next few years, and really understanding where your money is in educating our community about making sure our money is invested in banks and institutions that don’t invest in fossil fuels. And that’s a big theme, or next month, we’re doing a big food waste challenge. And food waste is another big thing for us. And we’re doing food waste free October, which is about the whole month of October um, reducing our food waste to zero. And, um, and all we’ll do campaigns around leaving plastic things on the shelf or out at shows, um, you know, 300 actions that you can do on a daily basis. And so we’ve got these different touch points, um, and we don’t care how you get involved with one million women, how you find your way there. We just focus on once. We’ve got you, we move you along this journey that you are changing how you live and you’re influencing others to do the same.
Morag Gamble: Great. And so how, how can people get involved or more involved if they can be touching base with the app or the website, but if they want to be like a real activist within the movement, how do people do that? Cause I’m, I’m asking this question because this group of permayouth, I work with this. So keen to be sort of more collaborators with movements that are happening and have, have a power and well, the size of the movement to that 1 million women is it’s, it’s really empowering for them to feel that they could be part of something much larger than themselves as well.
Natalie Isaacs: Um, yeah. And it’s a, it’s a really good question because, um, I used to think up until, you know, just recently that once you join one million women you’ll read, you know, and you’re part of it. And we, and it’s a very interactive and engaging community. Um, and we grow together. Um, but the last couple of years I have been thinking, how do we make one million women far more grassroots? How do we create communities everywhere, instead of being one big community, we’re about 970,000 women at the moment, but we are just spread out across the globe as one movement, which is wonderful. But I think that is the next chapter of 1 million women is, is creating small a one million women groups around, around the world. So I would love to talk your permaculture young about this because it would be, it really is. Collaboration is the most important thing from when I started 1 million women, it was a new concept to me, collaboration because as a cosmetics, it was all about secrecy competitiveness. I mean, I spent most of my day trying to figure out how to get somebody’s product off the shelf. And you never collaborated. You never collaborated. It’s cutthroat you, you want people out, you want people to companies to close up. So you had more space. And when I started one which is a completely different approach, it was about sharing and collaborating and, um, inclusiveness. And it took me the best part of three years to unpack what I had learned as sadly as a, you know, as a, uh, a business woman. Um, and, um, and I’m sure that all those, um, ethics, uh, I would be much better at it today if I still had my cosmetics company, but it’s just not the way that I worked. And so, um, so it was a hard thing to learn, which I needed to do because I was building a movement. But today, and in today’s, you know, as we try to navigate this crazy world, joining forces and collaborating, and, you know, we’ve all got one goal..
Morag Gamble: You know, really what we’re all needing to be doing is to be creating the conditions for the change that we need to see in the world and whatever those conditions are, wherever we are. And, um, and yeah, joining forces with different movements, um, you know, the Permayouth, for example, uh, uh, talking with earth guardians movement, which is, you know, across North America and one million women speaks to them a lot because they’re mostly young women and really just finding that way. And they’re just beginning. And so what advice would you give to a group of people who are just starting a movement? So these young women are looking at really starting this movement. How did you get from going, I’m going to start a movement to actually start. I mean, it’s quite a jump.
Natalie Isaacs: Yeah. It was quite a jump. And, um, I think you don’t think too deeply. It’s just that if you, like, when I started, when I, I didn’t know who the environment minister was at the time, I didn’t know any climate pulse. I didn’t know much about climate change science at all. I didn’t know. I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t even know who WWF were. Like, honestly, I didn’t, I was very disconnected to all of this. I really was. All I knew is I had just done something profound. I got my electricity consumption down, and then I got the food waste in hardly any food wasn’t it, but something like 80%. And I thought this, this is an incredible thing. And, um, and, and instead of worrying about what, I didn’t know, I just grabbed hold of the passion of what I felt I could share with others about what I just did. And, um, and so I think if you think too hard on the negatives, you, you never get something up now getting something up, you, you may succeed and you may fail that. That is what, that is one of the, you know, that is it, but, um, but just go for it.
Morag Gamble: There’s something about what you’re doing, I think, and maybe this is part of it. It feels like a celebration. Yeah. Like it’s not just, it’s not just the education about it, which is, you know, it’s key part of it, but just celebrating the change that you made is celebrating the change that is possible. You celebrating people coming together and it feels lively. It’s this, it’s the difference between, you know, telling, telling people what’s wrong all the time to celebrating what we can do right. And do together. And it has an attractive force rather than repelling force. And there’s something in that that I think that you’ve just absolutely nailed.
Natalie Isaacs: Aww… Thank you Morag. That’s really beautiful to say. I mean, we, we focus on what you can do and not on what you can’t, we don’t, we, we focus on, um, uplifting and inspiring people instead of, um, you know, filling them with guilt and because there’s no point and, um, you know, we all need to act and, and it is. So I think I might’ve said this earlier, but it is so it’s so easy to slip from either denial or right across to despair and to wallow in despair and to sit there and, um, and, and feel that you can’t do anything. It is, it’s not a hard thing to just bypass this piece in the middle, which is about action. And I know for me, I would rather much rather be sitting here in, in this piece of action, because it’s filled with energy, it’s filled with optimism. Um, it’s filled with hope and it’s filled with this, this determination to change the world. And so, you know, but the climate change is a very big concept and it’s overwhelming. And so it’s a matter of breaking it down so you can really grasp hold of it and go, okay, I understand, I understand that. And I, can I do this? This is the outcome. And so it’s breaking it down into what you can do as an individual and what that means, if we’re all doing it as a collective. And the beautiful thing, the beautiful thing about empowerment is that it helps you find your confidence in your voice. Absolutely others accountable. So they’re in action.
Morag Gamble: And so if you were so the bigger picture of what you want to achieve with 1 million women apart from gathering 1 million women or more to be positive activists, what’s that bigger picture goal. Do you have, you know, what, what do you want all of those women to be doing together? Is there something I think that, um, the bigger picture, Oh my goodness. I don’t know. I just think that the vision of one million women is that, that we are millions of women. Like, you know, it’s, we, we want to go past a million, but the vision is that, that we are women of the world living with the least impact on the planet and influencing others to do the same and using our voice now and, um, and our everyday actions. And, and that is it. That is that’s the vision. Yeah. There was more and more of us, you know, joining forces and doing that because when we’re all doing that, you know, and influencing others, the world changes and..
Morag Gamble: Raising the children who [inaudible] thinking from the beginning is they, if you, if you’re being raised in an environment that that is just normal, you don’t have to learn about it. It just is. And there’s something [inaudible] I’m going back to her again cause I’m working her a lot lately that she’s saying I’m part of the shift that’s happening is more, that needs to happen is actually a shift in perception. Because when we shift our way of thinking about things, then everything changes and it shifts the way that we make our decisions. It shifts the way that we relate to one another. It shifts the way that we make, we do our everyday life. And so also not, not often, we kind of look just for the action, but action is actually the shift in understanding and perception and relationships and all of that as well. And so I think we, you know, part of all of this is valuing that and how we communicate with our children and all of those things that makes this really important.
Natalie Isaacs: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. It is. It’s um, that’s absolutely right. And that’s where we, you know, a big theme for one million women is the love of the, and the love of community and, and a big part of the way that we communicate is making sure that we are emotionally connecting with people. And because if it sits all up here in your head and you understand that you can articulate it and you can, you can really, you know, you can really discuss it around the dinner table. That’s all well, and good. And that’s, that’s one process it’s gotta travel to your heart because once you, once you feel this in your heart and you know that, you know what, what I do matters and what I do shapes the world, once you feel that actually changing how you live does become an easier and easier conflict.
Morag Gamble:
Yeah. They come in contact with you feel that too, and it kind of, it almost emanates out of you and then it just, it becomes contagious. There’s positive contagiousness of good action in the world. Oh, that’s really lovely. Thank you. Well, it’s been so fantastic speaking with you today, and I really do hope that at some point, you’ll be able to chat with the permayouth and find a way that we can, you know, a local of one million women.Natalie Isaacs: I’d love it. Well, let’s make that happen.
Morag Gamble: Okay. Let’s do that. Thank you so much for joining me. I know that you’re, um, you’ve, um, crashed someone else’s places…
Natalie Isaacs:
My, my, my son and daughter in law. And they’re just about to have a baby in our household at the moment. That’s exciting.Morag Gamble:
Well, thank you so much for joining me and sharing that with us. And, and, um, I really do look forward to, to, um, connecting up our movement with one million women. It sounds absolutely fantastic. So I’ll put all the links to all of, um, to your book and also to those different campaigns down below. So people can access that and follow that up as well.Natalie Isaacs:
That’d be lovely. Thank you. Thanks so much for your support Morag. Bye bye everyone.Morag Gamble: So thanks for tuning in to the sense-making in a changing world podcast today, it’s been a real pleasure to have your company. I invite you to subscribe and receive notification of each new weekly episode with more wonderful stories, ideas, inspiration, and common sense for living and working regeneratively. And core positive permaculture thinking of design interaction in this changing world. I’m including a transcript below and a link also to my four-part permaculture series, really looking at what is permaculture and how to make it your livelihood too. So join me again in the next episode where we talk with another fascinating guest, I look forward to seeing you there!
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