Regenerative Cultures with Daniel Christian Wahl

by | September 16, 2020 | Permaculture Podcast | 0 comments

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What does it mean to design a regenerative culture? How we can become regenerative by design? What we can be doing in our daily lives to be part of the urgent change we need to see in the world?  These are the questions we explore today.

It is my great pleasure to share with you on Sense-making in a Changing World today, a conversation I recorded with Daniel Christian Wahl PhD as we walked through the ancient olive terraces around the medieval monastery, Son Rullan on the island of Mallorca in the Mediterranean. We met there last year for the first time – the beginning of a friendship after knowing of each other’s work for  years. We both are deeply involved in ecovillages, education, regenerative design and have a deep affiliation with Schumacher College, the Global Ecovillage Network and Gaia Education.

Son Rullan has hosted many ecological gatherings and conversations, including an Ecovillage Design Education program, and my family and I were so graciously welcomed there as guests for the duration of our stay. Daniel and I talked in pre-COVID times, but I am sharing this again because what Daniel shares is so relevant to where we find ourselves today.

Daniel’s book, Designing Regenerative Cultures, published in 2016 is essential reading – helping us to reframe the crises we currently face and exploring how we can live our way into the future.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Daniel and I invite you to share this episode and subscribe to my podcast here.




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I acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the land on which I live and work – the Gubbi Gubbi people. And I pay my respects to their elders past present and emerging.

Read the full transcript here:

Morag Gamble: Welcome to the Sense-making in a Changing World Podcast, where we explore the kind of thinking we need to navigate a positive way forward. I’m your host Morag Gamble.. Permaculture Educator, and Global Ambassador, Filmmaker, Eco villager, Food Forester, Mother, Practivist and all around lover of thinking, communicating and acting regeneratively. For a long time it’s been clear to me that to shift trajectory to a thriving one planet way of life we first need to shift our thinking, the way we perceive ourselves in relation to nature, self, and community is the core. So this is true now more than ever. And even the way change is changing, is changing. Unprecedented changes are happening all around us at a rapid pace. So how do we make sense of this? To know which way to turn, to know what action to focus on? So our efforts are worthwile and nourishing and are working towards resilience, regeneration, and reconnection. What better way to make sense than to join together with others in open generative conversation.

Morag Gamble: In this podcast, I’ll share conversations with my friends and colleagues, people who inspire and challenge me in their ways of thinking, connecting and acting. These wonderful people thinkers, doers, activists, scholars, writers, leaders, farmers, educators, people whose work informs permaculture and spark the imagination of what a post-COVID, climate-resilient, socially just future could look like. Their ideas and projects help us to make sense in this changing world to compost and digest the ideas and to nurture the fertile ground for new ideas, connections and actions. Together we’ll open up conversations in the world of permaculture design, regenerative thinking community action, earth, repair, eco-literacy, and much more. I can’t wait to share these conversations with you.

Morag Gamble: Over the last three decades of personally making sense of the multiple crises we face I always returned to the practical and positive world of permaculture with its ethics of earth care, people care and fair share. I’ve seen firsthand how adaptable and responsive it can be in all contexts from urban to rural, from refugee camps to suburbs. It helps people make sense of what’s happening around them and to learn accessible design tools, to shape their habitat positively and to contribute to cultural and ecological regeneration. This is why I’ve created the Permaculture Educators Program to help thousands of people to become permaculture teachers everywhere through an interactive online dual certificate of permaculture design and teaching. We sponsor global Permayouth programs, women’s self help groups in the global South and teens in refugee camps. So anyway, this podcast is sponsored by the Permaculture Education Institute and our Permaculture Educators Program. If you’d like to find more about permaculture, I’ve created a four-part permaculture video series to explain what permaculture is and also how you can make it your livelihood as well as your way of life.

Morag Gamble: We’d love to invite you to join our wonderfully inspiring, friendly and supportive global learning community. So I welcome you to share each of these conversations, and I’d also like to suggest you create a local conversation circle to explore the ideas shared in each show and discuss together how this makes sense in your local community and environment. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I meet and speak with you today.. The Gubbi Gubbi people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging.

Morag Gamble: It’s my great pleasure to share with you today on sense-making in a changing world, a conversation I recorded with Daniel Christian Wahl a great friend of mine and someone who I consider to be one of the most brilliant thinkers of my generation. This conversation was recorded as we walked together through the ancient olive terraces around an old monastery called Son Rullan in Mallorca last year. We met there for the first time actually, and it was the beginning of a friendship that’s continued. We known each other for years, but finally we met, uh, we’re both deeply involved in eco villages, in regenerative education and design and have deep affiliations with places like Schumacher college. And also with the Global Ecovillage Network. Daniel’s book, Designing Regenerative Cultures published in 2016 is what I consider to be essential reading, helping us to reframe the crises we currently face and explore ways that we can live into the future. He brings together some of the most important thinking of our time and weaves it together with a series of questions, which helped to provoke us to think about how we can collaborate in the creation of diverse and regenerative cultures. So I hope you enjoy walking with us in this conversation, in the Mediterranean.

Morag Gamble: I’m here in Mallorca at the moment with Daniel Wahl, and it’s a great pleasure to be here. I.. We’ve kind of known of each other for 20 years or something. And finally, we get to meet in this place as well. You can see behind us. So what’s this place called?

Daniel Wahl: Son Rullan.

Morag Gamble: Who’s place is it?

Daniel Wahl: It’s owned by a friend of mine who’s a fashion designer called Sybilla Sorondo and she has been stewarding this place for, I think by now 20 years. And it’s been home to a lot of people who, um, at some point in their life needed to kind of reflect and have a break and kind of cower down a bit. And it’s such a magical environment to do that.

Morag Gamble: And you run a lot of different programs here, too.

Daniel Wahl: Yeah. When we first got to New York, Sybilla invited Alice and me to stay here for seven months.

Morag Gamble: It’s such an amazing experience. Oh my gosh.

Daniel Wahl: And I helped Mandy organize the first ecovillage design education course here In 2011, which was right there on this terrace that we just walked past.

Morag Gamble:
If we swing around a bit, this way, we’re surrounded by ancient olive trees and a huge mountain up behind us, which I actually don’t think I was quite expecting when I came to…

Daniel Wahl: That’s Mallorca secret because we have the mountains and we have them where they are. It means that all the moisture that comes over from the Pyrenees drains off in the mountains and we’ve pretty lush green area in the mountains. And then on the other side of the Island, it’s almost a semi arid desert.

Morag Gamble: What brought you to Mallorca. I mean, you’re German, aren’t you?

Daniel Wahl: I’m German originally, but, um, ever since I am a little boy, like six months old, my grandmother took me to Italy for my holidays. So basically by the time I was 18, I’d already spent a year and a half in the Mediterranean and realized that one doesn’t need to live in Northern climates if chooses to, and, and I’ve always wanted to live in, like I tried twice to live in Spain. And then the third time after leaving, Fintan, Sybilla who I had met at the Bioneers conference, organized, invited me that I could come and stay here for awhile. And I also really liked the idea of Mallorca being a case study site for bioregional development because after, um, my time in the ecovillage movement and also helping with transition town initiatives at the beginning of the transition town boom, I sort of realized that the scale at which you can create a really regenerative sustainable system is bioregional and not quite so small as I have thought for 15 years. Self sufficiencies story that a lot of people get into in the beginning I realize to really create resilience you have to create it with lots of people in your region and with lots of communities in the region.

Morag Gamble: Absolutely. Yeah. So just tell me a little bit more about that because you’re, you’ve written a book and the book’s called Designing Regenerative Culture. So maybe we could start and say, what do you define as being a regenerative culture? What does that mean to you? What does it, what does that look like in your eye, in your mind’s eye? If you imagine it, what do you see?

Daniel Wahl: Well, um, first of all, that it’s really important that it’s Designing Regenerative Cultures, that it’s plural because, um, I think that these cultures have to be very carefully adapted to what I call the biocultural uniqueness of place. So the local ecosystem and it’s, um, opportunities and challenges and the whole history of the local culture and, and who lives there and their stories. So each regenerative culture will express itself depending on their history and their place. And for me, because everything keeps changing continuously. It’s really about the capacity of the people in that place to live in ways that leave the place more bio productive, more abundant, healthier, more valuable in all ways, not just in terms of human value, then they’ve received it from the forebearers. Yeah. So it’s about healing, the landscape and restoring ecosystems and making them as bio productive as they can be, which is what you’ve been busy with all year.

Morag Gamble: So I was about to ask you though, I mean, what, so in order to do that, what’s the type of education that we need to support that unfolding or the emergence of cultures that you’re talking about?

Daniel Wahl: I think, first of all, we need to get off the mindset that education is something that you do in the first third of your life, and then you just work and then you get tired. And we have to re discovered education as something that is a lifelong process of drawing out our full potential and the potential changes as we gain experience and our surroundings change. So it’s, it has to be lifelong learning. And, um, I think we know a lot of wonderful educational initiatives that both you and I have been involved in the, in the ecovillage movement GAIA education GAIA, university, the whole permaculture network, the regenerative agriculture, and it’s all, all those networks that are doing wonderful work. Um, other people like Otto Scharmer with Theory U and all these processes, we need a Holistic Education that brings that enables people to do this regenerative work in their place. So one of my mentors from the Regenesis group in their regenerative practitioner training, they really highlight the importance of capacity building as part of working regenerative.

Morag Gamble: And so when, when you say that, what, what do you mean by capacity capacity building? In what way?

Daniel Wahl: It’s all mentioned this in the GAIA education curriculum, we have the social economic ecological worldview that I mentioned, and I think we’ve, we’ve created an education system that creates too many generalists. And we now have all the information. So at our fingertips through computers that we really need generalists that know how to integrate and synthesize and connect information. And that requires being able to talk to people. So it’s communication skills. There’s also how to run a project and how to budget it and how to fundraise for it and all those kinds of things, or have innovative ways of funding it. So you have to have some kind of economic literacy too, social literacy, economic literacy, but then of course, all the ecological literacy that we can draw out of permaculture and other, um, such methods that have studied the patterns in nature and have tried to invent human ways that connect with these patterns and to enhance them because we are part of nature. We’re not separate from it. Um, they also can meaningfully inform how we do business and how we build our communities. And absolutely, and I think that it’s, it’s the big challenge we talked about this yesterday, is that, can we create, um, the network that now that we’re at this critical point in human history where I believe that if we get it right, we will, up-skill millions of people in the next five years to do this work.

Morag Gamble: I think my mind started going a buzz when you started talking about the scale that you’re talking about, I think it’s absolutely critical, but it sort of bounced me out of my kind of thinking about local and community and even by regional, because what you’re talking about is a, it’s kind of like a global awakening. Yeah.

Daniel Wahl: But it’s glocal, it’s locally grounded in the story of place in the biocultural uniqueness of place. I think what we were sort of at the brink that at least a percentage of the people who are part of that elite monetary class that has amassed vast amounts of money, uh, beginning to realize that there will not be able to enjoy that money if the planet goes to ruin and we’re going there fast. And so I think the money will be made available to train up these people. And so that means all the organizations who for years, 30, 40 years, some of them have been struggling in scaling up a few permaculture teachers a year. Like how many do we get to 10,000 a year for lucky, globally? And it’s amazing, but at the same times, it’s not enough. And so I envision bringing all these players together to, to at least make visible this pathway that already exists, that somebody could take to really become part of the regeneration, realizing to, to find their path and all this to maybe specialize a little bit, say I’m more of a facilitator guy and I’m more of a, of a agroforestry, but, um, to at least know the value of all of them and how they, how they talk to each other in the regenerative system.

Morag Gamble: And so how do you, how do you see all of this linking in with the major movements that are emerging now? You know, the climate action.

Daniel Wahl: I just, this morning had had a real moment. Like I was watching all the footage from last weekend in London and the extinction rebellion. Yeah. And as much, I mean, as good friends of mine activating. Um, but I’m not a hundred percent sure. Maybe rebellion speaks to a certain age group in a way that you get more excited about joining it. But for me, it has a sort of, as much as they say, there is still a chance. I see the negative message first. And I feel coming from fear, isn’t really unleashing people’s creativity for me catching all that energy. That is an extinction and catching all that energy that is not with Greta Thunberg’s amazing work in Fridays for Futures and really giving it a little bit of a spin towards we are the regeneration rising. We can in all these places become a force, to heal our ecosystems and in that process heal ourselves. And, and, and then to really also challenge these, these silos, we’re still in the, I don’t think that the world of the 22nd century will be a world of nation States and will be a world of people being carefully adapted to that bioregion in global collaboration. And so all this thing that we’re still holding onto of national identities and stuff, they, they they’ll take generations to be absorbed and not become so important anymore, but we need to start realizing that we’re one humanity on one planet, part of the community of life. And either we express that, that we are part of the community of life. I think Janine Benyus nailed it with saying life creates conditions conducive to life. And as life we are capable of creating conditions conducive to life. And that’s what we need to do.

Morag Gamble: There’s a couple of things that you’ve just said. Now, one of them being about just slightly turning or it’s like, wow, it’s something about, you know, there’s this, there’s this movement rising. And I feel like all of the work that we’ve been doing in the ecovillage moment, the permaculture movement, bioregion where we’re like for decades, all this work is, is there kind of waiting for this activation to happen, but my question is about how do we turn on, how do we kind of connect the two so that it’s this fluid. And if you have any ideas on that.

Daniel Wahl: I’m still waiting for it to happen to some extent, like I’ve, I’ve reached out to some of the voices in the extinction rebellion. And, and we, for example, George Monbiot really picked up on Jeremy Lin’s work, but I’ve not seen him fully embrace this idea of the regeneration rising and all the kind of regenerative movements around the planet, which is exactly what he’s calling for. So, um, I think we, we really need to like, certainly in my work, I, I try to make these movements visible to each other. And I try to celebrate our diversity, um, rather than kind of trying to create a sort of storyline around how regenerative is better than biomimicry and better than permaculture. I see all of these, these are regenerative cultures, these movements they’re now coming together. It’s like a confluence. And that means that we all need to be able to amplify each other’s words.

Morag Gamble: I think what you said about making them visible to each other, that is just such a critical point. Isn’t it? And it’s, and it is about supporting each other and, and working with each other. And I think that’s kind of, that’s going to be the key cause we all want really the same thing. Yeah.

Daniel Wahl: And it’s, it’s part of our, what we do, you asked earlier, what education do we need, we certainly need an education that teaches us to think in a yes. And rather than a no. And even I think that in our movement, we still fight. I still find it so often that people pick up on the little bit where they don’t like the wording or they don’t like that, particularly a nuance of somebody’s way of working, instead of saying wonderful. We’re all broadly aligned and whilst they’re learning, I’m gonna say if I didn’t quite like the second side sentence that this person, but I loved the rest of the conversation. Let’s not start at the little bit, we’ve got a niggle with. Create a world that, that actually embraces our diversity. Also a diversity of opinion as part of our creativity.

Morag Gamble: Yeah. So what do you think is some of the next steps that we need to be taking in this regenerative movement?

Daniel Wahl: Not to create an other because we don’t really have time for another round of them in us type gaming. Um, and so that for me always is an invitation to whoever the people that I would feel least comfortable talking to and then seeking them out to talk to them. And, um, I also think that we’re still a little bit under the illusion of how many of us now the numbers are growing rapidly and they’ve been growing rapidly in the last three or four years. But, um, I think we need to go beyond that into popular culture. We need to engage the arts and the music industry.

Morag Gamble: So you’re talking a little bit about this yesterday, about how do we, this process of amplification, this process of connecting the movements. And so I’m interested to sort of hear a little bit more about how you, how you see that emerging, because I think this is a really key point. Isn’t it?

Daniel Wahl: A couple of projects that I’m beginning to dream into with some friends is, um, engaging key people in the music industry to basically create it’s not, not another life aid, not another Woodstock, but something that is an ongoing process of inviting people who write songs and sing and play music to message, what we’re losing and the hope for what we can restore and message this, this kind of on the one hand urgency of avoiding climate change and that this, the shortness of the window of opportunity that we still have. But at the same time message the possibility that we can make it through the eye of the needle and that we can create a better world together and that it might take a bumpy ride of a couple of decades, but it’s, it’s a meaningful thing that you can engage with at this point in human history.

Morag Gamble: It’s a way of connecting with people at a different level. It’s not about trying to tell them about something or try and convince them about something. It’s an almost in a way, creating something that’s so inviting and enticing that people just joined because it’s the joyous path forward.

Daniel Wahl: And I think that’s why in my book, I pay such attention to questions rather than solutions is if you want to engage people, ask them questions, what is meaningful to you? What does, what would you like to see in this place? What is the vision that you have for your community’s future? And then really work with the diversity of answers in a way that you can cocreate from that. And I think that’s where we need them, the creative industries to begin that kind of, to make it trendy and fashionable to ask those questions. And so everybody can go out and engage with their community to say, okay, um, we can’t save the world, but what we do we do in this place. And the beauty of this at the moment is that preparing your community for a rocky ride of three decades of tough climate change and [inaudible] and all that, which is probably ahead of us building the resilience is actually the same pathway as restoring the system. So re-regionalizing and production and consumption, increasing your capacity for local food, cleaning up your local waterways, reforesting, bringing soil, bringing your soil back to life. All of these activities are at one at the same time, climate change reversal activities. And over 30 years will possibly get us through this walkie ride. But at the same time, they also increase the capacity that as there will be disruptions and breakdowns to, to respond to them so that there is at least as sort of win, win and taking that path.

Morag Gamble: Absolutely. I wanted to just ask you a little bit about what you think is, you know, what’s ahead of us on the next little while. What, what, what’s your interpretation of what we’re heading towards in the next few years, even?

Daniel Wahl: Well, it’s staggering to think that the effects in terms of climate change, that we’re currently observing with these freak warm winters and, and flash floods and storms and superstorms, and all of that is really, these are the results of greenhouse gas emissions from the 1990s. And to really feel the result of what we’ve admitted since we’ll take another 10, 15 years to really hit us, which is this issue that even if we get it right now, we will actually have to prepare people for the fact that they might see a global groundswell of positive work that maintains itself for three, four, five, six, seven years. But during that time, things are getting worse rather than better. On the one hand, you see some ecosystems come back a little bit and all that, but there’s still be catastrophes. And it’s this, this awareness that we’ve left it late, and we are undergoing a species level right of passage. And part of right of passage work is that you don’t know whether you’re going to make it, but that precisely is what’s going to cook us down enough. So our heart breaks open and our relationship to earth and other can be healed to my mind. And so I’m not seeing as rosy future in terms of there will be grief and suffering, but at the small scale, if we come together and we choose a positive healing future, we’ll also have a wonderful time because we’ll have more meaning we’ll have more community that we’ve had for a long, long time. And, um, and so I, I’m beginning to prepare to pay more attention to the second half of glocal. Um, like I I’ve loved my global work and as long as the Internet’s running, I can do quite a bit without leaving home, but I really want to, um, dig into my bioregion and build a future for this Island that we’re standing on.. And for my family in a community on this Island.

Morag Gamble: Yeah, that’s awesome. And I think so in a way, you know, a lot of that work through, you know, things like the permaculture movement, the eco village movement that, you know, they’re being carried out over the last decades is in forming a lot of the kind of direction that we do need to head, but in a connected way, you know, in our bioregions. And I know I’m kind of seeing it at, you know, where I live too at Crystal waters and Malania, and our whole area, it’s quite a strong, strong place where I feel like we were starting to even create almost like a local economy where we don’t need systems or things like that. People have got to a point where they, they just do try and exchange because they trust, you know, and it’s, and it’s great to see how you don’t really, it’s quite a short period of time. You can create regenerative culture, you can regenerate the land. Like we’ve been out there for 30 years and that’s, you know, 30 years, it’s not a very long time, but you know.. And it’s kind of, I think it’s, so what other places have you seen around the world do you think are really fabulous places to look at to kind of see what’s going, what’s going well, what are some examples that we can kind of look to and go, Oh, okay. That’s kind of how we could do it or…

Daniel Wahl: Well. I mean, I remember when, when, um, Robert Gilman and Daniel Goleman traveled around all the ecovillages and look at them all, and then they kind of came back and this was in the 1990s saying, um, that not one of them was as proper sustainable community that would function at forever after, but that if you overlay the patterns that they were all working on, um, you could create a meta pattern that that actually made sense. And so I, like, I feel tempted to name Findhorn is one of those places I lived there for four years and it also has its functionality still. And these intentional communities, they’re more, I see them as pressure cookers for human development and opportunities to really learn fast and experiment with things in a way that is sort of a bit outside of the normal system, but we really need to bring it into the cities and into normal people who don’t have that impulse to join intentional community. Um, but in terms of maps of hope, um, my friend David McConville from the Buckminster Fuller Institute, um, started a map that’s on Google. If you look regenerative projects, map, Google ask me for the link because what’s on that map is it’s not just, um, all the projects we could find. It’s, it’s basically projects that are established enough that they have a little video and they have a website that tell a story and amazing projects all around the world. Great Bear Forest in Canada and some of the projects in Brazil that should get a lot more visibility work on central Africa, um, agriculture and, um, yeah. All around the world.

Morag Gamble: So the link to that, cause I think people are watching this would love to kind of dive into that and see what you’re talking about.

Daniel Wahl: I don’t know the exact link. It’s basically, if you go onto the BFI website, Buckminster Fuller Institute website, and you look for regeneration project map, then you’ll find it.

Morag Gamble: Ok great! I’ll try and find it and I’ll put it down below. Yeah. So what’s your next step, just as we’re heading back to the..the things you are your work coming up in this next year or two..

Daniel Wahl: On the one hand, I really want to, um, find a piece of land and start growing my own little food forest and increase my own local resilience a little bit, which will take up a lot of the time. Um, but I’ve also got some funding to do something that I wanted to do for a very long time, which is I’ve been blessed with the proportionate amount of mentors for one lifetime. And that makes me almost tearful to, to mention it because it’s really something that for a long time, I was actually, um, finding it difficult to live with the responsibility of having learned so much from so many amazing people in a personal connection. And it’s, since my book has come out and I’ve started to share this more through social media, that I feel a certain relief of that burden. And, and basically what I want to do is to interview, have conversations with all these mentors. Some of them are now in the eighties and some of them are much younger than you and to, to basically make visible their work again, make them, make them visible to each other, make their wisdom known to the people that, that I’ve got on social media. I’m interested in basically spreading the good work that they’re doing, but doing it in a way that is in a conversation where I can kind of weave the connections between all those pieces there. Yeah. So that’s one of them.

Morag Gamble: Wait, you know, it’s kind of funny you say that because that kind of feel very much the same, so we should keep sharing our conversations that we have. And, and, uh, cause I think it’s, I think it’s a really important thing, isn’t it? That it is about sharing, sharing the stories and helping to, to evolve a new story about where we’re heading, because it’s, that’s kind of, I think how, how the message does ripple out is through those personal stories, through the personal connections and through feeling into it. You know, I think we need to move out of our heads quite often and actually into our heart and then create those really practical skills locally that you’re talking about and, and connect all those things together.

Daniel Wahl: Yeah, again, it’s, I always find, I agree, we need to get out of our heads and into our hearts, but we also don’t need to forget our heads.

Morag Gamble: No of course not! Yeah.

Daniel Wahl: It’s always this, this, this being really aware that one of the things that happens a lot in that, in our movement, that’s what we’re talking about. Paradigm shifting. I think that there’s a danger in the framing of a paradigm shift that is a, from this to that. And too often in human history, have we forgotten what was valuable about the old system in this frustration with it, that then made us swing over to the new system. And I think we really need to become more integrative in that way of, of valuing all that diversity. And in terms of what you and I are doing with social media work, like the more we amplify each other’s outputs, because there’s such diversity of people out there, they will resonate. One person will resonate with that. Person’s framing another person or that person. So the more we keep our diversity vibrant, the more people we can reach, act this way. And then as we, as we do so in a mutually amplifying supportive way, people begin to realize that, yeah, okay. Like I can learn from this person to learn from this person and we create a pathway for people to go deeper with them.

Morag Gamble: Yeah. That sounds fantastic. I look forward to working with you more and hopefully seeing you again. It’s just so wonderful.

Daniel Wahl: It’s wonderful. I know. Look at this background!

Morag Gamble: It’s such a magical place yeah. You’ve found yourself to a beautiful place to live. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for spending the time today. Thank you.

Morag Gamble: So thanks for tuning in to the Sense-making in a Changing World podcast today, it’s been a real pleasure to have your company. I invite you to subscribe and receive notification of each new weekly episode with more wonderful stories, ideas, inspiration, and common sense for living and working regenerative and core positive permaculture thinking of design interaction in this changing world. I’m including a transcript below and a link also to my four-part permaculture series, really looking at what is permaculture and how to make it your livelihood too . So join me again in the next episode where we talk with another fascinating guest, I look forward to seeing you there.


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